EPISODE # 567
Dec 06, 2025
In a profound exploration of the intersection of mind and machine, Michael Shermer hosted two luminaries in cognitive science—Jay McClelland and Gaurav Suri—on the latest episode of The Michael Shermer Show. Recorded on December 6, 2025, the discussion delved into the evolution of thought processes and the underlying mechanics of intelligence, both human and artificial.
McClelland, a professor at Stanford University, is recognized as one of the founders of modern neural networks, a pivotal development in artificial intelligence. His extensive research has garnered over 100,000 citations, marking him as a leading figure in cognitive science. Meanwhile, Suri, an associate professor at San Francisco State University, brings expertise from both computational neuroscience and experimental psychology. As the director of the RAD Lab, he focuses on the mechanisms that drive motivated action and decision-making.
Their upcoming book, The Emergent Mind: How Intelligence Arises in People and Machines, serves as a centerpiece for the conversation. The authors aim to bridge the gap between cognitive psychology and AI, illustrating how simple interacting units can generate complex behaviors. This narrative not only casts light on the inner workings of the mind but also challenges existing notions of consciousness and perception.
During the episode, McClelland and Suri discussed how the transition from behaviorism to cognitive psychology has reshaped our understanding of intelligence. They highlighted the nuances of perceptual differences, explaining how context influences the way we recognize letters, and why certain aspects of memory remain elusive. These discussions underscore a broader inquiry into the nature of consciousness, which continues to baffle scientists and philosophers alike.
The duo also addressed misconceptions surrounding artificial intelligence, clarifying what AI is—and isn’t—capable of achieving. By dissecting the mechanics of thought processes, they emphasize the importance of understanding the underlying frameworks that govern both human cognition and machine learning. This perspective could have significant implications for the development of more sophisticated AI systems.
As cognitive science intersects with advanced computational methods, the implications for various sectors—including education, healthcare, and technology—are vast. By deepening our understanding of how intelligence emerges in different forms, researchers can better design systems that augment human capabilities and address complex challenges.
With a blend of rigorous research and engaging dialogue, McClelland and Suri’s insights not only contribute to ongoing debates in AI and psychology but also pave the way for future innovations. Their work invites both scientific and public discourse on the evolving relationship between humans and machines.
As the conversation around AI and cognition continues to expand, the insights from McClelland and Suri promise to influence how we approach the development of intelligent systems. Their contributions highlight the need for interdisciplinary collaboration, offering a path toward a more profound understanding of the emergent properties of intelligence.
For those interested in exploring the frontiers of cognitive science and artificial intelligence, this episode is a must-listen, providing both depth and clarity on some of today’s most pressing questions in the field.
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